Navigating Sex, Dating & Neurodiversity with Dr. Matt Zakreski

In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with clinical psychologist and neurodiversity expert Dr. Matt Zakreski about navigating sex, dating, and relationships through the lens of neurodivergence. From decoding consent to building confidence in communication, Dr. Matt offers real talk, deep insight, and practical tools for connection.

In this conversation, we go behind the scenes of the social dynamics most people take for granted—like reading the room, picking up on flirting, or knowing how to initiate intimacy—and what happens when your brain processes the world differently. Dr. Matt breaks down why things like anxiety, social cues, and different ways of developing can make relationships feel especially confusing or overwhelming for neurodivergent folks.

We explore how to build social and sexual competence through practice, why naming your needs is powerful, and how embracing your unique wiring can lead to more authentic intimacy.

If you’ve ever felt like dating is confusing, consent is awkward, or you’re not doing it “right”—this episode will help you feel seen, empowered, and better equipped to create connection on your terms.

Connect with Dr Matt Zakreski 

Website:  https://www.drmattzakreski.com/  

The Playbook: https://www.drmattzakreski.com/the-neurodiversity-playbook

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmattzakreski/

Connect with Deborah


Questions and Answers 

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Podcast Feedback DeborahTantraKat@Gmail.com 

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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.

Deborah Kat [00:00:00]:

Theater. Okay, great. So I'm going to go ahead and read the the welcome to the Better Sex Podcast, introduce you, ask you to share about yourself, and then we shall dive in.

Dr. Matt [00:00:15]:

Let's do it.

Ms. M [00:00:16]:

All right. Welcome to the Better Sex Podcast. My name is Deborah Cat and I am your shameless host. This is the Better Sex podc where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships. These conversations are frank and explicit and may not be appropriate for all audiences. So please listen with care. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like, subscribe, subscribe and leave a comment.

Ms. M [00:01:00]:

Today we are going to dive into the world of my guest, Dr. Matt. He is a professional speaker and clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergence that's gifted ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and so much more. Dr. Matt specializes in taking knowledge of the brain, human behavior and clinical psychology and making that and practical for people to improve their lives, their sex and their relationships. He's the co founder of the neurodivergence Neurodiversity Collective and the author of the neurodivergency Playbook, How Neurodivergent People Can Crack the Code of Living in a Neurotypical World. I hope I got all that right. Welcome, Dr.

Ms. M [00:01:55]:

Matt. I am very excited to have this conversation with you. First, did you get here?

Dr. Matt [00:02:04]:

Well, I mean, one of the things that always one of the best things about my job, right, is that therapy is a space where you can talk about a lot of the things you can't necessarily talk about in quote, unquote, polite society. Right. You know, and there, there was an old podcast called Death, Sex and Money where they're like, we could talk about the things that you can't talk about other places. I'm like, that's my job though, right? Like, I have those conversations with people. So, you know, I mean, it is holding space to have those conversations is. Is a vital part of building relationships, but also building, like, the internal skills necessary to have those relationships. So I often say to my clients, like, listen, let me be your crash test dummy. Practice the things you want to say to other people, to me, because I'm going to give you that feedback.

Dr. Matt [00:02:55]:

I'm not going to be scared off. And we're going to craft what sounds like this the most authentic you together.

Ms. M [00:03:02]:

I love that you bring practice in to the conversation right away because I think one of the things that I see with My clients is they're so afraid to make a mistake. And so we don't have places to practice, we don't have ways in which we can try things out. And you know, that really is the way that we learn, learn new skills and learn how to be better at them.

Dr. Matt [00:03:28]:

So yeah.

Ms. M [00:03:29]:

Oh, go ahead.

Dr. Matt [00:03:31]:

Well, I mean, and one of the things, one of the traps that we fall into a lot when you're serving neurodivergent people is that neurodivergent people develop asynchronously. Right. They're out of sync. So you might be someone who's 20 years old and intellectually you're 28, academically you're 29, chronologically you're 20, emotionally you're 17 and socially you're 15. So how are you supposed to find community, how are you supposed to get your needs met when you're essentially five different people? And in gifted psychology we call this the rule of five because you might be able to have academic discourse with, you know, a professor at a university, but then when that conversation turns into like, what do you want from your career? You know, the 15 year old part of you is like hahaha, fart joke. And it's like oh no. And it can feel almost impossible to wrangle all of those things together to prevent a unified front. So like it's really hard to, you know, as Scott Barry Kaufman always says, we contain multitudes, but it's really hard to get those multitudes to work together.

Ms. M [00:04:48]:

So how do you get all of those parts and peoples and to work together?

Dr. Matt [00:04:54]:

I think it all starts from a place of self knowledge, like the, you know, I always say that a lot of people in the world are walking around thinking that they're zebras. I'm thinking that they're horses, or specifically weird horses when they're actually zebras, you know, because like zebras and horses look a lot alike, right? They, they might seem like they need similar things, but a zebra is going to be happiest getting a things, getting things a zebra needs. And if you've been walking around your whole life thinking that, well, how come I look like a horse, I sound like a horse, I grew up around other horses, but I'm not succeeding with the things that those horses are getting. Well, it might just be because you're a zebra and understanding that you're different and understanding what those differences mean allows you to create a whole new life path that is going to be much more likely to be successful in giving you the things you want. And need so you can be happy.

Ms. M [00:06:01]:

So we kind of jumped in and I'm going to step us back for just a second because the world, you know, the word word neurodivergent, it feels like it's in a lot of different places. And if I'm truly honest, I'm not exactly sure what it does mean, what it really means. So would you mind taking a minute and telling us what is neurodivergency?

Dr. Matt [00:06:25]:

Absolutely. And I'm, you know, thank you for you. We did dive right in. Right. It's good to level set so you. So you could define a neurodivergent brain as a brain that does things unexpected. Right. It does not function as we would expect the brain to do, so based on some of these age stage, station of life.

Dr. Matt [00:06:51]:

So the brains that do are called neurotypical brains. Right. So a neurotypical brain functions largely as a brain would expect, as you'd expect it to. About 80% of people are neurotypical. Right. Their brains function like we'd expect them to, that they develop synchronously. They're 20 years old, socially, emotionally, academically, intellectually, personally, they're just 20 years old, neurodivergent people, about 1 in 5 or 20% of the population. Their brains grow up in some fundamentally different ways.

Dr. Matt [00:07:22]:

And the reason I talked about that asynchrony is that there's only so much developmental energy to go around, go around in the brain. Right. So you have 100% developmental energy normally goes. Spreads equally among those five domains that we talked about before. But when you're neurodivergent, intellectual might get 35% and academic might get 30%. So now instead of everything getting 20%, now we've got 35% to split among three developmental areas, social, emotional, and physical. So this is where a lot of my clients who can hang intellectually with the brightest and the best are also people who are quick to get their feelings hurt and shut down, or people who can't navigate a complicated social relationship because developmentally speaking, they're not in the same place. But it's really important to ground all this work in neuroscience because there are still people out there who think ADHD is just too much sugar or too much TikTok.

Dr. Matt [00:08:26]:

Right. There are still people out there who think autism is badism. There are still people out there who think that dyslexia is kids just not trying to read. And when I can sit in a room and show some brain slides and say, this is what this stuff looks like, gang, I Feel like we are raising the floor of the conversation for all these people. And starting from the same place.

Ms. M [00:08:49]:

I really. In your book, you talk about. I mean, the title is about having a code. And in your book, you talk about feeling like the rest of the world has a secret or a code, and somehow you were left out. And I thought that was a really interesting analogy in terms of understanding how socially we come in at different places and how sometimes, you know, sometimes you're. You're. Like the phrase, you know, they can't read the room.

Dr. Matt [00:09:29]:

Yeah.

Ms. M [00:09:30]:

Or, you know, you know, things like that. And. And from. From what I'm gathering, it sounds like that's as much a. A brain function and a way of being as it is a skill to be learned. Am I understanding that right?

Dr. Matt [00:09:47]:

I think you nailed it. Right. And one of the things that's foundationally important there is, you know, I love the language that we stumbled on there because, you know, I would come home from. From school and say to my mom, like, did everybody just have, like, a meeting? Did everybody have a conversation? Did they get an email? Like, why does everybody seem to know the new rules of being social as an 8th grader that are not the same rules that they were when you were seventh grader? And I was so just knocked off kilter by that because, you know, being a very smart and sensitive person, I was aware that things were shifting, but I. But there were so many unwritten rules that I couldn't parse that together, and I couldn't put that together. So, you know, you're in. You're in situations where, like, you're feeling anxious socially, which causes you to act atypically. When you act atypically, people react weirdly, which makes you more anxious, which makes you more likely to act strangely.

Dr. Matt [00:10:57]:

You know, when I was a school counselor, I could always tell when my kids had crushes on other kids because they were acting super weird, right? Like, hey, do you like earthworms? Me neither. Bye. And they would run. No one was talking about earthworms. Derek, why are we. Why are you yelling about earthworms? He's like, I don't know. She's so pretty. Right.

Dr. Matt [00:11:16]:

And that's, you know, but when you. But when you think about, you know, those unwritten rules in those social environments, right? We have these things in our brain called mirror neurons. Right? Mirror neurons are, you know, we're social creatures, so they. They monitor other people's social behavior, right? So if they're doing a thing, your brain does a version of that thing. Your Brain's like, should I be doing this too? Right? So when I teach classes, I'm like, so mirror neurons, like, for instance, I'm thirsty, I'm gonna have a drink, and I'll take a big sip of my drink, and then everybody in that room who's thirsty go like. Like, subconsciously reaches their water and they'll look like, what am I doing? Are you a witch? And I'm like, no, I'm not a witch. I just. We're socially synced in right now.

Dr. Matt [00:12:06]:

So your brain is going, should I be having a drink of water too? Because he's having a drink of water.

Ms. M [00:12:11]:

And I was absolutely looking around my.

Dr. Matt [00:12:13]:

I was watching you looking for your water. And the problem is, is that neurodivergent people, their mirror neurons operate at a different frequency, a different wavelength than neurotypical people. So if you're a music person, like, you could say that neurotypical people are in 4, 4, time. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, four. Whereas neurodivergent people are in 16, 16 time. 1, 2, 3,. 1, 2, 3, 4.

Dr. Matt [00:12:43]:

1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. They sync up every once in a while, but there's a lot of gaps between them. So it's like you're getting like every sixth word and you're like, I'm not sure what's going on here. And it just creates this sense of confusion and dismay and being unsettled. And none of those are good internal environments to create positive relationships.

Ms. M [00:13:07]:

Well, I think that's so interesting about. I didn't realize that the mirror. The mirror thing was part of how we got our social cues in terms of how to behave as a, you know, an eighth grader versus a ninth grader versus a tenth grader versus a twelfth grader. I'm really fortunate. I get to be the fun aunt of a friend of mine's kids. And they're, you know, there's a. There's a 13 year old in there, there's a 16 year old in there. And so it's been fascinating kind of just watching and I'm kind of curious.

Ms. M [00:13:51]:

Where do you think sort of, for lack of better word, mean girl syndrome comes in? Like, what's that about?

Dr. Matt [00:14:01]:

Okay, so when people feel out of control, they control whatever they can, right? So if you are socially out of control, you're going to control the variables that are closest to you, right? So if you can get everybody marching to your drummer, if you can. If you can dictate the social milieu in your middle school or high school, then you are lowering your anxiety a lot because now everyone's looking to you for what to do, right? If you think about the movie Mean Girls, right, Regina George doesn't become a villain until she's threatened, right? She's got Karen and oh my gosh, I should know. I can think of the actress's name. You know, she's got her posse who are like, defend, like they're doing the grunt work for her because they're more anxious than she is, you know, Gretchen Wieners and Karen, whatever the heck her last name is. But like they've, they've got more to lose. So they do the grunt work, they do the pushing down. Because for some people, when you're on the, the bottom end of the popular click, you become convinced. The only way to say there is to make sure the people below you have been pushed down.

Dr. Matt [00:15:23]:

We see most bullying, most mean girl behavior from people in sort of the A minus range of the social clique. The A's and A pluses, they don't care. They don't, they have nothing to lose. They're not bothered, right? But the A minus B plus click, that's where we see the most tension. And it also happens at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The kids who are Persona non grata, they don't care. They're like, whatever, you already think I'm a freak, right? But the kids were could be sucked into that black hole. They will pull anybody down below them.

Dr. Matt [00:15:54]:

They're like, nope, I'm drowning, but you're gonna drown first, buddy. And so that's where we socially, that's where we see the most conflict and more of that mean girl stuff because it's about controlling things that feel uncontrollable.

Ms. M [00:16:07]:

And I thought it was really interesting that what you said about it being, you know, these girls are the most anxious and it seems like either we're talking about anxiety a lot more or, you know, I mean, our world is a lot more anxious. It's a, it's a lot more up seeming than it was when we were younger. And so I can see where there's more, more anxiety. But what, what are your thoughts about that?

Dr. Matt [00:16:36]:

Well, I mean, there's a couple of things going on here, right? So if you don't me asking, how old are you?

Ms. M [00:16:43]:

I just had my birthday. I think I'm 58 or 57.

Dr. Matt [00:16:48]:

So you're a generation above me, right? I. So I was born in 83, so I'm 41. But we both have the gift of Growing up in the pre social media world, right? And the thing that was great about social school for me, it's like, you know, so I was like, I was badly bullied in eighth grade. Part of the reason I wrote my book is like feeling so out of sorts. I was a target and then everybody bullied me as a way to elevate themselves and. But when I left school, that stuff didn't follow me home, right? There was no message boards, there were no tweets, there were no memes, right? You know, unless they were going to call me and be mean to me, which I suppose they could have done. Like I could, you know, it was calm until I went back to school the next day. But the kids today, I mean, they like, not only are they plugged in on their phones, but there are so many more ways to reach somebody to bother them.

Dr. Matt [00:17:47]:

And you know, I mean, so you can have a kid who's getting, you know, I mean, kids who I work with now who are bullied are like, well, people just create some fake Google voice account and have the Google voice set to call me every 31 minutes and say nasty things to me and that. Like, but you, there's no one to yell at because it's a ghost account. And I'm like, oh my, that's some like James Bond shit, right? Like, and these kids are using their powers for evil, but if somebody is being put down, at least it's not you. And that's a terrifying reality. But like, we didn't have to deal with that, right? And so like now work follows us home and school follows us home and social life follows us home. And you know, the, the cost of, the cost of information is access because people can access you and in all sorts of ways. I mean like, can you imagine trying to send a nude picture in the 80s? You'd have to what, get a Polaroid, right? And like snap and then put it in the nail and like post office, would you take this to you know, like, you know, 337 Main street get there on the double, right?

Ms. M [00:18:58]:

Like it's, it would be a two week process.

Dr. Matt [00:19:01]:

It would be a two week process. You know, who knows what it would look like after two weeks. My God. And that's the thing that like is really like, so kids are just, they have to be on so much more. So that's their cortisol levels, they're making them more anxious. And also this generation right now, they missed three years of foundational social skills, right? I mean the kids who are on the tail End of high school during the COVID years, they were still affected, but they, they, they seem to be, have been relatively unscathed. But the kids I'm seeing now who are matriculating into high school, who are getting ready to graduate high school into college, I mean, socially, they're just lost. They just don't, they didn't get those reps because you can have the best ideas in your head.

Dr. Matt [00:19:50]:

But so much of this is about meaningful practice. And those kids were robbed of two to three to four years of meaningful practice. Right. And you know, because you're not in the lunchroom talking to people, you're not flirting with somebody on the bus, you're not planning a sleepover, you're not sitting in your buddy's basement playing video games and talking about who's the hottest girl in your class. Like, those are foundational experiences for developing somebody's psychosexual sense of self. And you know, they, a lot of kids pivoted and they adapted. So they didn't get zero, but they sure as hell didn't get 100%. And that's that lag right now.

Ms. M [00:20:33]:

Well, and I'm curious, I heard somewhere, first of all, I think it's a really interesting way to measure it, but they're talking about how college students are having less sex and this is a bad thing.

Dr. Matt [00:20:47]:

Yeah.

Ms. M [00:20:48]:

And I'm curious what you think about that.

Dr. Matt [00:20:52]:

I think college students should be having all the sex they want to. Right. I think that's a good thing. And I think that we're seeing some of the Race to Nowhere stuff in college that we saw in middle school, high school, like, because then it was like, well, you don't have time to have a social life. You have to take six AP classes, do volunteer work, have a part time job. If you could cure cancer on the side, that's how you're going to get into Yale. And now you're seeing that in college as well, where the kids are like, listen, I don't have time to go to frat parties. I can't get drunk on a Tuesday.

Dr. Matt [00:21:26]:

I have to get a job. Right. And they're getting this message where it's like, college is very expensive. Do not waste your time. Graduate in 3 years if you can join the workforce. And it's a race to nowhere because like, holy shit. Like, when I think back on my college memories, I gotta tell you, most of them don't involve class.

Ms. M [00:21:47]:

Right. Well, and then on top of it, there's, I, I mean, I was fortunate. I grew up on the college campus. My dad was a professor, so I understand, you know, for me, a lot of what I value and see as valuable about college is the socialization is the time to explore ideas is and has nothing to do with having a job afterwards. And I know that, you know, that that used to be more of a accepted way of thinking, but somehow we've switched it on to, you know, the what. What is college good for and why do we need it? And I think, you know, not to underscore the incredibly untenable way that the, the, the loans of. Have. Have come up and everything else, but it's, it's just an interesting thing.

Ms. M [00:22:47]:

And I love what you said about like, oh, this is. This was a time to do different kinds of reps. Yeah. So let's talk dating. Yeah, I actually. Yeah, let's talk dating. So what do. When.

Ms. M [00:23:04]:

When you're working with. With particularly male clients who are neurodivergent and who are having a hard time connecting with women and girls. What, you know, what, where do you start with them?

Dr. Matt [00:23:23]:

So I think it really starts in a question of like, what are your values versus what are the values you've been told to have? Now I think one of the luckiest things in my life is as I got into college, like, we were moving out, we were moving ever so slowly towards, like, the consent is sexy era. Like, you know, I was. I would ask somebody if I could kiss them good night, right? I would ask somebody if I could walk them home. And that was a way of dealing with my social anxiety, right? I was like, I'm like, well, I don't want to like, awkwardly follow this person and be turned down. I'd be like, yo, hey. So like, can I, can I guess you goodnight? Like, can I come upstairs with you? And like, thankfully we've started moving to a world that consent stuff is much more normalized. It's much more out there. And frankly, it fits the neurodivergent brain a lot better.

Dr. Matt [00:24:17]:

Because reading subtle social cues, being in the moment, reading the room, are things that a lot of neurodivergent people struggle with. So, like, that kind of over what we call meta communication. Talking about talking. Right. Is helpful for neurodivergent people because it's like, hey, I'm sorry, are we flirting? Are we on a date? You know, why are you taking your shirt off? That's. I did not expect you to take your shirt off. Right. And, you know, I remember this is a very embarrassing story.

Dr. Matt [00:24:48]:

I remember in high school, you know, there was a girl who was very popular, and she and I were working on a class project together. And like, the first couple of times I came to her house and we worked on the class project, we sat at the kitchen table and did the work together. The last time I came over, she's like, oh, let's work in my bedroom. And then, like, made a big show of shutting the door. And I was like, well, we have to finish this project. We have to finish the biology lab. And we finished the biology lab. And then I was like, all right, I'll call my mom.

Dr. Matt [00:25:17]:

And. And like, the next day at school, she was super cold to me. And I was like, what the hell? And I told my best friend about it, who is much more socially apt than I was, and he was like, you're a moron. And I'm like, what? He's like, she basically locked you in her bedroom, dude. Like, what did you think was going to happen? And I was like, I don't know what was supposed to happen because, you know, that social asynchrony, like, it did not occur to me. Like, and I'm sure she felt embarrassed because she had done the basically the equivalent of like, I show up and she's laying there naked, right? Like freshman high school version of that. But it's like I, you know, and like, I'll never get a chance to apologize to her for that. And it's just, it's, you know, it's one of those things like, ah, damn, you know, but knowing, you know, you can't know then what you know now.

Dr. Matt [00:26:08]:

But knowing that, like, to put yourself in a situation is the kind of open and honest communication about it is. Is beneficial to everyone, right? Because had I not been interested, and I was very interested, which really sucked, you know, like, then we could have had a conversation about that. But instead it was this sort of like. Well, she'd been socialized to not ask and I had been socialized. I hadn't been socialized enough to understand what the unspoken things were. And, you know, I mean, so many opportunities that are sexual, romantic, even friendship are missed just because of mix of missed signals, you know, and that's a really, you know, that's a really tricky thing to navigate.

Ms. M [00:26:59]:

Funny hearing you say that makes me think. One of the things I like to talk about is dropping the hanky. And the whole idea that, like, back in the day, women had hankies and they would like drop the hanky and the guy would either pick it up, he would, you know, and hand it back to her, he would step over it and just be oblivious. You know, she'd pick it up, she'd put a rock in it, she'd throw it and. Just kidding. But, you know, there's. There were all these signs, and hearing you talk, I'm like, oh, right. You know, as a.

Ms. M [00:27:33]:

As far as I know, neurotypical person, like, sometimes I even have trouble with those signs. Like, I have trouble knowing what signs to give. Or, you know, I've been with my partner for a really long time, so now it's really easy. It's like, you know, when I say, hey, babe, let's put clean sheets on the bed, he gets that smile because he knows that that is an invitation.

Dr. Matt [00:27:57]:

Right?

Ms. M [00:27:59]:

And. And I would imagine that many couples develop these kinds of invitations. And. And so it's a. It's a. Yeah, I'm not sure where I'm going with that, but that's a really interesting, you know, to not have those kinds of signals from the beginning can be. Can be tippy, can be really tricky. And having that freedom for.

Ms. M [00:28:26]:

For the conversation, you know, I think there's a lot of people who complain about, like, oh, I don't want to be asked, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, sometimes if it's the right way, it can be pretty hot, you know?

Dr. Matt [00:28:38]:

Right? Consent is sexy. It really. It really is. Right? And it gets this. It gets this reputation as it's like this super nerdy, formal, like, excuse me, pursuant to this interaction, would you care to engage in sexual intercourse? Please click yes or no. Right? I mean, no, that's not. That's not sexy. But, like, you know, there's.

Dr. Matt [00:29:01]:

There are ways to communicate about it and around it that work, that are in the rhythm of that, of that cup of that. Of that couple and what they need. And, you know, I think a lot of, you know, what my partner and I talk about is like, is not so much that we're going to have sex, but when, like, you get a date night. Like, I don't know about you, like, you go out, you have like a big meal, you have a couple glasses of wine. Like, sometimes you come back and you're tired and you're full and you're like, I don't feel sexy right now. I feel full and like, you know, so it's like, we will have sex before date night. Because then it's just like, well, that was great. And then we can go out and have date night.

Dr. Matt [00:29:43]:

And then if we feel like having sex after date night, we can do that too, right? But that's like, you know, what I say to my clients and my friends is like, listen, this is the person you've chosen to spend the rest of your life with or people you've. Right, let's include our, you know, our polyamorous friends here. And like, so if you can't ask these questions to that person or these people, then what the fuck are we doing? Right? Like, people get so anxious to talk about sex, both asking and receiving questions about it. But when we normalize that as a part of process, like, I'm going to the grocery store. Do we need anything like, hey, we haven't sex, had sex in a while. Should we have some sex? It is really just taking the temperature of the relationship, and it can feel as. As normalized as what do you need from the store? Right. And that.

Dr. Matt [00:30:37]:

But the benefit is not that, oh, cool, I got eggs. The benefit is, oh, cool, I had sex. Right. That's just so much more reinforcing.

Ms. M [00:30:46]:

That's so good. And, and I love what you're saying about normalizing because, you know, it's like, I think we don't say something because we're so afraid of getting an answer right. It's going to be, you know, if we. If it's a no, it's really. It can be really disappointing. And sometimes if it's a yes, it's like, holy, now what? But like, normalizing, the idea of just making offers and making requests and having them be just like you said, you know, can I get you something from the store or would you like, you know, that extra cup of coffee? I want to go back for just a second because, you know, part of the reason I reached out to you is one of the people that was in. That I was working with was, I think he said he was. Had adhd.

Ms. M [00:31:36]:

And I honestly, you know, worked with him a couple of times and was like, wow, this is. This. This is not my wheelhouse. And so I'm kind of curious, like, what. And for me, what. What was like. For me, what was difficult is some of the things that I would normally say, like, you know, feel your feet on the ground and let's slow you down. And are you, you know, are.

Ms. M [00:32:04]:

Are you actually hearing and responding like, just. That was not part of. I couldn't get him there. It started making me think. And so it made me curious, like, what. What kinds of advice would you give to. To, you know, folks that. That are just really fast in that way?

Dr. Matt [00:32:27]:

The. One of the things you can do is own your fastness, right? Like, it's like, my. Sorry. My brain is jumping, like, seven steps ahead in this conversation, and it's because I'm really excited, right? Let me slow down. Let me go back to step one. Right? And. And there. And just naming that, bringing that process into the conversation can be so helpful to people because, like, you don't know what's going on between my ears.

Dr. Matt [00:33:01]:

Right? You don't know if I'm zoned out. You don't know if I'm looking at the hot girl across the bar. You don't know if I have, like, if. If you sicken me. But if my brain is like, okay, so we can have one more drink, and then I'm going to ask her to come back to my place. And after I go back to my place, what movie should we watch on Netflix? Because we have to pretend to watch a movie. And then we're going to do this. And then like, oh, my sheets clean.

Dr. Matt [00:33:20]:

Oh, my gosh. It's like, like. And she's like, I'm sorry I asked if you wanted to have pretzels. And you're like, what? You know, so your brain can really just sort of, you know, get so sped up you miss the basics. Right. You know? And like, you know where I was watching the winner, the figure skating thing with my kids the other day, and my daughter was like, how do I learn how to do that triple spinny jump thing? I'm like, well, you have to go to hockey practice. You have to learn to skate first. She said, but that's boring.

Dr. Matt [00:33:51]:

I don't want to do that. I'm like, well, it's. It is boring, but it's boring now. It will become basic as you do it. Right. And one of the things I'm fond of saying is that confidence builds competence. And competence builds confidence.

Ms. M [00:34:11]:

Yes.

Dr. Matt [00:34:12]:

Wherever you start in that loop. Right. Like, okay, I am competent. Like, one of my kids, his girlfriend from campus coming to visit, and he geared up his cards, and he asked his best female friend. She's like. He said, can I borrow a bra? Because I need to learn how to practice how to take a bra off. And she was like, you are such a nerd. But sure.

Dr. Matt [00:34:31]:

And like. And so, like, he practiced. And when that moment came, he was. He had facility where they were. Right. You know? And it's the sort of thing. He was stressed out about it. I was like, well, you've got a resource to solve that problem.

Dr. Matt [00:34:45]:

Right? And, you know, and like, that's why I tell my kids, like, masturbation is a Healthy thing because you're learning what you like and you're learning what you don't like. And then you can communicate that to a partner or partners, because the odds are they don't know any more about what they're doing than you do. Right? Like, well, where do we. Where do I touch what and what is what? Where go in the. Hey dah. Right, so like understanding what you know, what lights your fire and understanding what turns you off are vital pieces to having a healthy sex life. And what better way to practice than with yourself?

Ms. M [00:35:25]:

Oh, that's so good. So what I'm really hearing is that a big part of the work that you do with folks is helping them to understand themselves. Helping them to understand, like, oh, wow, I do this thing. And so if I'm doing, if I catch myself doing the thing, here's another thing that I can, that I can maybe do to, to actually be present and to be more connected to the person that I'm with. And competence. Love that. The confidence, competency piece. That's pretty awesome.

Ms. M [00:36:01]:

So in terms of like, where do you suggest that as a neurodivergent person? Like, how, how do you suggest that people navigate the, the dating world? Like, are you. And do you suggest they hop on apps? Are you like, go to live events? Like what, where. Where do you suggest folks start?

Dr. Matt [00:36:28]:

Well, so the apps can be very helpful for neurodivergent people because it cuts, cuts out a lot of the stuff that makes this hard for us, you know, like, like, well, if someone is on the app, then they must. Then their reasons for being here are made explicit or at least they're loudly implied. Like, nobody goes on Tinder to find out. Like, hey, you know, anybody know the best bakery in Soho? Like, you know, you don't go on Tinder for that. Right? Like, so the idea with the apps is it sort of normalizes why we're all here, right? And it. And they can make the conversation a little bit more overt and a little bit more helpful and thus more accessible. So that's a good thing if you are meeting people irl, right. Then what I tell my clients is lead with your interests because your interests are the best version of you.

Dr. Matt [00:37:23]:

Right? So if you are a larper live action role play, then I want you to go to a live action role play event because I'm not saying that you're going to find your significant other or others there, but you are much more likely to find good relationships there. And if you leave that with a couple of people to call on a Friday to hang out, that you've gotten that much closer to having the kind of relationships you want. Because good people tend to hang out with good people. And maybe they have a barbecue in a couple of months. And maybe, you know, your friend from LARP brings her friend from the office, and, golly gee, she's pretty, right? And so you're, you know, what you're doing is you're building a social network that offers you access to lots of. Lots of doors you wouldn't otherwise open, right? We depend on each other for connections, right? And that's, you know, if there's a good thing about social media, it's when you connect with somebody, it's like, oh, here are the connections I have in common. I wonder which one of these connections brought us together? And that's a very cool thing. So, you know, I.

Ms. M [00:38:31]:

That's a great opening line as well.

Dr. Matt [00:38:34]:

It absolutely, absolutely is, right? And, you know, so, like, lean into those moments, right? So lead with your interests. And, like, you may think, well, like, but, you know, nobody dates people that they meet at mahjong or, you know, or my Latin class or, you know, my adult choir. Maybe not, right? But good people beget good people. You've got people to hang out with. You've got people to practice your social skills on. And, you know, maybe down the line, they're like, hey, we need some people to play on our softball team or our kickball team, or, like, we're, you know, we're all going away to this lake house, right? It just. People give you opportunities for things, and that is a, you know, becoming a theater kid. In high school, like, I went from like, how the hell does one meet a girl to have a girlfriend with to like, oh, I'm now surrounded by all these girls, and they're all very limber.

Dr. Matt [00:39:36]:

They're all very good dancers, right? And, like, you know, it just was like, oh, here is a large group of girls that I could potentially date because I spend a lot of time with them and we clearly have some stuff in common, right? And. And that is not a bad thing, right? But just, we become so desperate to get to the finish line. It's that race to the end that, you know, I think that it turns a lot of people off because, I mean, honestly, is there anything less sexy than desperation?

Ms. M [00:40:08]:

Not that I can think of.

Dr. Matt [00:40:09]:

You know, so, like, let's, you know, so, like, I tell people, like, listen, take your time. It's absolutely worth it to invest in the relationships that someday get you to the relationship, you know? And like, I remember when I lived in Philadelphia, my best friend joined this all male singing group called the Orpheus Club. And it's the oldest all male singing group in the Northeast or something like that. And. And he was like, this is just something to do. Like, he's like, I don't know, like, I can't find a girlfriend. I'm a good singer. It's very fancy.

Dr. Matt [00:40:42]:

Why not, right? I'm gonna do this and join a fraternity in college. I'll do this. And then it turns out that they had these rip roaring parties in their clubhouse. And a lot of eligible women from Philadelphia came to these parties because you had to have a certain amount of money in your paycheck to join this singing club. And yes, these attractive women would show up at the parties. And all of a sudden he's like, oh, my God. And I'm cool in this space because, like, I'm singing in this choir. And here's our awesome clubhouse in a really cool part of the city.

Dr. Matt [00:41:13]:

And these girls are all dolled up and they want to talk to me, you know, so it became this, like, what a weird way to meet girls. But it absolutely worked. You know, I couldn't do that because I can't sing my way out of the paper blank. But, you know, but you find your version of that.

Ms. M [00:41:30]:

And do you. When would you suggest that you tell somebody that you are neurodivergent?

Dr. Matt [00:41:38]:

I mean, you know, it's funny, the research on this shows that, like, the process of coming out as neurodivergent is very similar to the process of coming out as lgbtq. Right There, like, there are environments that are safe and affirming for that, and there are environments that are not safe. Right. So. And it's a process. You have to come out a lot, just like, you know, as ADHD or gifted, just as you'd have to come out as bi or trans or whatever that might be. So, you know, I think that if you're in the right environments, that stuff is more normalized. It's more part of the environment.

Dr. Matt [00:42:18]:

Like, if you go to a Mensa meeting, if you're a gifted kid like me. Well, like, everybody at MENSA is gifted. Like, so you don't have to really worry about that, you know, or if you go to, you know, if you go to, say, Dungeons and Dragons meetup, there's a lot of Dungeons and Dragons clubs for adults now because D and D is very popular. And I think that's awesome. Right? There's a lot More neurodivergence. That's sort of overt there. LARPing. Very similar community, right? Theater, choirs.

Dr. Matt [00:42:46]:

Those are things where you're drawing a certain type of people. But if you meet somebody in the cafeteria line at the office, like, then I think you're coming out as neurodivergent. Is relevant to the extent to which you want them to understand you, right? And so, you know, like. Like, I have, like, a lot of neurodivergent people have sensory issues, right? Like, you know, I can't. That sound that Styrofoam makes when it rubs together is like. It's like my brain explodes. It's the worst, right? So, you know, if I remember, I was talking to a girl at a baby shower once, and they were opening a present, and, like, we were having a very flirtatious conversation, and somebody opened a kid's toy that was in that styrofoam stuff. And I was like, it looked like I got tasered.

Dr. Matt [00:43:39]:

And she was like, what did you. I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I have a really tough time with the styrofoam noise. And she was like. And she was clearly put off by that, right? She's like, oh, I thought this was this cool, normal guy, and he is neither of those things. I was like, well, it's your fault that you thought I was cool. No, I'm not cool.

Dr. Matt [00:43:54]:

I've never been cool. Right? You know, and, like, she excused herself, and I felt like an. Right? I was like, oh, man. Like, so. But, you know, there's no way I could have anticipated that happening. And this gets back to the idea. It's like, we want the people in our lives to love us because of our differences, not in spite of them.

Ms. M [00:44:15]:

And just out of curiosity, if you're. Where did you meet your wife?

Dr. Matt [00:44:20]:

So I met her on the first day of grad school to get our doctorates in clinical psychology. And I remember meeting her and shaking her hand, thinking to myself, well, that's convenient. Took her a little longer to get there. But, you know, And. And it's funny because I. We were both dating other people at the time, and she was in a long relationship, and I was in a short. What the kids call today, a situationship, you know, but it was the sort of thing like, you know, we were on a collision course, you know, And. And you think about all the decisions that have to happen in order for that meeting to take place.

Dr. Matt [00:45:00]:

I mean, that's why it's a miracle you meet Anybody, right? And like, whether you put that in God or the universe or math, right. It's just whatever it might be, but like, it's damn remarkable, right? And like, I, you know, I don't think my wife is my soulmate. I don't think we were destined to meet. An astronomical number of decisions, many of which were completely out of our control, had to happen in order for us to meet. But since the universe put her in my path, you better believe I'm going to take advantage of that. I'm going to, you know, marry her and. Check. And have some kids with her.

Dr. Matt [00:45:36]:

Check. And live that best life. We can. Check, right? Like that's, you know, that's what I'm gonna do. Right? So, you know, I think one of the. If you put yourself in situations that are aligned with your values and interests, you will meet the people and be given the opportunities that will just give you make your life closer to what you want it to be, you know, and, and that is a it, you know, it really is about trusting the process. Right. If you are leading with your values, you're never going to steal yourself.

Dr. Matt [00:46:11]:

Wrong.

Ms. M [00:46:12]:

I love hearing that. So in a minute, I am going to ask you to talk a little bit more about the Playbook. But first, I want to give people an opportunity to know how they can support the better sex podcast. Because, you know, as good as a podcast is, it may not have all the answers and sex is kind of a complex, top complex subject and it's not one that most of us grow up talking about at the breakfast table. Yeah. And so, so I'd like to offer a bedroom sexual mastery breakthrough session. And this is a one on one session. And you bring the questions, I bring the answers.

Ms. M [00:46:56]:

And we can talk about anything your heart desires, including what your heart desires. So please check out the show notes. There is a link to have a sexual mastery breakthrough session. Because obviously life is too short for bad sex and unsatisfactory relationships. So tell me a little bit more about the Playbook. What inspired it? What do you think? What do you think? You know, who's it for? What's it for? Tell me more.

Dr. Matt [00:47:35]:

Oh, so, yeah, I, I pitched it to my publisher as this is a book for anybody who is, works with or loves someone who's neurodivergent. And she goes, that's a great title. And then she thought, first she's like, wait, that's everybody. I'm like, that's the point, right? So, you know, I mean, if 20% of the world is neurodivergent, the other 80% has to deal with that 20%, right? And the 20% of neurodivergence has to deal with the 80% that's neurotypical. I don't need anybody to mask. I don't need anybody to sell themselves out, to go along, to get along. But the idea is, like, if you can't crack that code, you can code switch, right? You know, in a podcast format. I'm a lot more professional, I'm a lot more dialed in than I would be if I was just talking to my buddies, right? If we were just shooting the shit over a beer.

Dr. Matt [00:48:28]:

But this particular podcast is a little bit more chill than some of the other ones I've been on. So I'm a little bit looser here. I'm code switching. I'm stepping into a space to communicate in a very particular way, to get a very particular outcome. You know, when people contact me to come speak to their organization, that is the most neurotypical version of me. I'm like, yes, I can give that talk to you, and yes, this is how much I charge. And yes, this is a good thing I can do. And I will fly there and I'll stay in a hotel, and I will do all these things.

Dr. Matt [00:48:59]:

When I get off that call, I've got to sort of burn off the. The energy I spent masking my nerdy, geeky, ADHD gifted self. So I'm like, I'm gonna go watch cartoons, right? Like, no. So, like, and however you release that authentic self, right, for some people, it's by sex, right? Some people, you have a long day at the office pretending to be somebody or not. You come home and you're like, honey, let's get in bed, right? And, you know, we'll order in a pizza if we need it. Like, that's fine. Like, however you de. Stress and decompress.

Dr. Matt [00:49:32]:

Because the world is sometimes at best uncaring and at worst actively aggressive towards neurodivergent people. We just. We often don't fit, you know, and. And that means that we can be ostracized. It means we can be excluded. It can mean we just. There's a lot of invisible psychological cost to being neurodivergent. And, you know, writing this book is like, let me name a lot of that stuff.

Dr. Matt [00:50:05]:

Let me give you some practical strategies that help you close that gap and step into the space where being a neurodivergent person doesn't feel like a burden. It just feels like a if, you know, like, this is who I am. And sometimes I have to slip on my, you know, my Clark Kent costume, right. If I'm Superman, right? I gotta go to work. I gotta go to the Daily Planet, right? And. But I get to come home to Lois Lane at the end of the day. And that's not the worst thing in the world, you know, And I think that's. That's a really.

Dr. Matt [00:50:38]:

It's a powerful way to do that, because I know it's a lot of the stuff I've struggled with. And having seen hundreds, if not thousands of therapy clients over the years, I know that's what a lot of my clients say to me. Like, you know, and that shows up at work, it shows up in family, it shows up in relationships, and it definitely shows up in sex and dating. Like, how do I be the most authentic version of me? How do I have the courage to be vulnerable and authentic and a world that tells me, be like everybody else or you're going to be left behind. Right? So I called it the Playbook, because I was like, let me get you from A to Z, because I think I can.

Ms. M [00:51:13]:

Beautiful. And what a gift. I mean, hearing you say those things about, like, the code switch or the, you know, having to mask, if you will, and show up in a certain way. And I think everybody, at least I certainly have that experience. And, you know, the beauty of. Of what you're. What I'm really hearing and what I really appreciate is it's like, yeah, I'm out of the box, and there's other people who are out of the box who want to come play with me. And so how do we find each other? And how do we, you know, when we have to step into the box, how do we play the box? Right? Because I think, you know, really learning how to play the box is as important as learning how to play outside.

Dr. Matt [00:52:01]:

Yeah.

Ms. M [00:52:02]:

So how can we find you? How could I. How could we have more of you?

Dr. Matt [00:52:09]:

So I'm chronically online, so there's two sort of two parts of my professional identity. So I often describe it as this. Like, if you think you need therapy for you, right. If you want to talk to me about you, then it's the Neurodiversity collective dot com. That's our therapy practice. We have five practitioners and me who are all very neurodivergent, affirming. You know, we, you know, we call it the Neurodiversity Collective because we see everybody. Right.

Dr. Matt [00:52:39]:

You don't have to be neurodivergent to see us, but that's like, if it's one on one, that's the place to go. If you think my message makes sense for your organization, whether it's a school or a community organization or a Fortune 500 company, you know, then that's drmatcresky.com, that's my speaking consulting arm. I try and keep those two parts of the business separate because I want to. I help different people in different ways. So, yeah, it's either theneurodiversitycollective.com or drmatzikresky.com and if you end up in one instead of the other, trust me, we'll help you either way.

Ms. M [00:53:17]:

And do you are you a social media guy now?

Dr. Matt [00:53:20]:

So, yeah. So you know, I'm big on Facebook. It's Facebook.com Dr. Matt Zachresky also Instagram. Instagram.com Dr. Matt Sikresky I was going to roll out a TikTok and then TikTok got banned and then I got unbanned, so I guess I'm still doing that. And I have a Vimeo page where you can see some of the talks I've given. That's a great way to get a sense of my style and my content.

Ms. M [00:53:47]:

Oh, good. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Matt. I am thrilled to have you here. It's been a really fun conversation. And please follow him. Like, this is an incredible resource we have right here. And again, thank you for your time and your effort.

Ms. M [00:54:04]:

And if you are listening and you know somebody or somebody's who could be helped by listening and hearing this podcast, please pass it on, like subscribe and share us with your friends. So thank you so much and see you again soon.

Dr. Matt [00:54:25]:

Thank you.