Reframing Porn with Joseph Kramer

In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with pioneering erotic bodywork educator Joseph Kramer, PhD. Joseph shares his transformative journey from academia to becoming a leading teacher of erotic massage and sexual embodiment. In this conversation, we delve into how pornography– which is often seen as ‘bad’-- can be used as a tool to learn the art of touch in your relationship.  Along the way, we chat about methods for increased body awareness during self-pleasure, how to enhance erotic experience through breath and presence, and the value of experiencing all kinds of touch… even beyond the erotic. Joseph and I also discuss the legal recognition of sexological bodywork and its significance in innovative sex education, especially in light of health crises.  This conversation dives deep into the power of getting to know your own body and desire to enhance pleasure with some useful tools to facilitate this exploration.

Connect with Joseph

www.sexologicalbodywork.com/links
EroticMassage.com
OrgasmicYoga.com
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.kramer.10/

Connect with Deborah

Got questions about sex and relationship? 
Podcast Feedback DeborahTantraKat@Gmail.com

Book a breakthrough session with Deborah
Sexual Mastery Breakthrough Session
Sex and Relationship tips direct to you Inbox 
Stay Connected Pillow Talk Newsletter 
Practice and experimentation 
Better Sex Membership 

In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.

Deborah [00:00:18]:

Welcome to the better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Kat and I am your shameless host. This podcast is where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships and all the possibilities of sex and relationships so that we can help you figure out what works best for you so that you can have better sex and satisfying relationships on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier, a safer and a better world. So if you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment today I am just so delighted to have Joseph Kramer, PhD, on my show, talking to me. He is one of the world's foremost teachers of erotic body work. In 1984, he founded the Body Electric School in Oakland, California, and has trained professional massage therapists and erotic body workers for years and years. This all started as a response to AIDS, and we'll talk more about that because over the year and over the years, Joseph has filled more than 100 hours of erotic body work demonstrations and solo sex teachings.

Deborah [00:01:44]:

All of these are now part of the library on eroticmassage.com and orgasmicyoga.com. This is a new way to learn about your own body, about your partner's body, about sharing touch. That feels good to both of you. So part of why I'm so delighted is because Joseph has really had a very direct impact on me. Back, I'd say in the mid ninety s, I worked with a collective of body workers and sensual body workers. And one of the places that we went to learn about how to touch male genitalia was to Joseph's videos. And so it's been a really profound experience in learning how to actually, I mean, I've learned so much about cocks and how to touch them and how to interact with them and even had a deeper understanding of the experience of what a cock was all about from your work. And I just really want to appreciate that you've been one of the people who've been willing to step out and teach and talk and educate about sexuality in just such a profound way.

Deborah [00:03:20]:

And I could go on about the body electric, but I'm going to pause for a moment and say thank you for joining me. I'm so happy you're here. And how did you get here? What was your journey like?

Joseph [00:03:37]:

Deborah, I'm very glad to be here. And your enthusiasm is contagious. I'm feeling, I, I was this academic type, you see, a PhD after my name. I studied philosophy and I studied mathematics and I was in my head and I remember coming to Berkeley and getting a massage. My academic advisor was sitting with students, and he said, I just went to esalen and studied massage. And if any of you would like a massage, I'd like to practice. And people got up and didn't. They were nervous because this is an academic situation.

Joseph [00:04:24]:

I go, I would like that. And he said, it has to be on a massage table. And I thought in my room I could take the door off my closet and put it on my desk and tie it up and put blankets on it. And that's what I did. And he came and gave me a massage. And I had never had a massage before, and it was 2 hours of the most important education I had up to that point. I'd done all the studies. I was in graduate school in Berkeley, and my body turned on.

Joseph [00:05:01]:

I was paying attention to what this person was doing. And he said, I just studied at Esalen. And you know what I remember most about this whole massage was the webbing between my toes, and he was massaging this. And I go, oh, my God. I didn't even know that existed. I was just so aware of all of this. And after that one two hour session, I go, I want more massage. In fact, I want to be a masseur.

Joseph [00:05:31]:

And so within a year, I went to massage school in Berkeley here, and got certified, not so much really to be a masseur, but I wanted to get a lot of massage, too. But then I started giving massage, and I just found it was so important. It pulled me out of this heady thing that I was from the neck up so much of my education, and I started feeling I had a body, and I love giving massage. I found that I wasn't distracted at all. I was distracted reading books and distracted reading an essay. But when I'm touching someone, I was totally present. It pulled me in the feel of their skin and the texture under the skin. And I studied a lot of other ways of touching, acupressure and all this.

Joseph [00:06:27]:

And I love giving massage. And after several years, I said, I'd like to start a massage school. I'm going to start a massage school. And that's where body electric came from. And body electric comes from. The term is from Walt Whitman, who said, I sing the body electric. But for me, body electric was the aliveness in one's body that you. I.

Joseph [00:06:53]:

So I started this massage school, but I had no intention of being involved with erotic massage or sex education. This was massage. And I'm an introvert. And I thought, oh, this will be quiet. It'll be a quiet education. And I like giving quiet massage. I didn't even talk very much. Now, over the years, I've learned to ask people questions and all this.

Joseph [00:07:20]:

But the beginning, it was just quiet and they spaced out. So that was my beginning, was touch, but how important touch was. But then the next thing that happened though, was I was running the school and some of the people in the school were gay men. But AIDS hit San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I'm in Oakland and I go, I know that touch is not a way that you get AIDS, but people are afraid of each other and they're afraid of touching. So I thought all going to. I was very afraid. I'm paranoid about police and all this. I thought, I'm going to teach erotic massage so that men who had AIDS and men who didn't would have ways of touching each other because massage was so important.

Joseph [00:08:16]:

And in my classes, I advertised men with Aids and men without AIds. It was just men were invited to come and get massage. And then I had another class that was massage on people with life threatening illness that everybody took who wanted. And they did work with people who are dying because people are dying. And all this, that was a different type of massage. But the erotic massage became very popular. And one of the gay magazines, the Advocate, did a cover story on this. This is in 1987, and people all over the United States invited me to come and teach erotic massage in their city.

Joseph [00:09:02]:

And I developed this two day class where I came and taught a massage where people learned a massage. And it really was like. And I made it up. I said, oh, I know how to do different rebirthing breath. So I'll have breathing during it. Because for me, breathing keeps me present. And I know if I'm doing erotic massage, a lot of men would go off into fantasy or go somewhere in their mind, but if they're doing a breathing during the massage, it kind of interrupts that and you have to be present and feel your body. That's a good idea.

Joseph [00:09:49]:

Well, it was an amazing idea because when people stayed present for erotic massage, they had even better experiences. And they were going, oh, my God, this is amazing. So people started taking these massages into their own life. Massage wasn't that big a deal at this time, but Margot Anan and other tantra teachers, there was no tantra. There was no massage in Tantra. Tantra massage. But they were in Moran in this area, and they started doing massage. Some of the people from their organizations came and took classes with me and started doing erotic massage.

Deborah [00:10:26]:

I just want to pause you. There's so much there that you've already covered, but I do want to just as you back. It's hard to fathom know, because we were in San Francisco, in the Bay Area, which was really the birthplace of sensual massage, partly because there were a lot of women who followed Osho and the tantra path who were wanting to bring this sensuality and the sexuality out into the world. And I didn't realize, but it makes perfect sense that your work came out of the healing aspects of touch around the AIDS epidemic as well as. It sounds like hospice.

Joseph [00:11:23]:

Yes. There wasn't such a thing as hospice. That came later, but it was helping people die. I named a new profession. I called it sacred intimates. And sacred intimates were people who worked with your body to help you maybe teach some sex education, but also maybe to help you die. So sacred innits were people who were there for you as you went. It was like hospice.

Deborah [00:11:58]:

Yeah.

Joseph [00:11:59]:

I felt that massage was about. There was something about solitude, because you're not staying present to your partner during massage. You're going off into your body and into this realm of solitude. And there's times, I think, in relationships where people need solitude, even the most passionate lovers. And so if people. That's why I'm really. To give your partner a massage is not to help them to be safe and all this, but not necessarily to stay connected to you. It's to let them go into their solitude, into their body, into their experience.

Joseph [00:12:41]:

When they come back, they can share that, and then they could give you that experience of solitude. But I think that's what I really liked about massage. And even erotic massage can be that you go off into your. You just feel your erotic body vibrating separate from doing anything with it. You're just there.

Deborah [00:13:05]:

I just wrote this piece about receiving and sort of the dance of giving and receiving, because as the receiver, for many of us, it can be a little edgy to just be the one receiving, to allow ourselves, as you're saying, to have the experience of our own bodies, of our own eroticism. But receiving is such a generous act, right? It is so generous to allow your partner to give to you. And I think that's something that is so underrated and so misunderstood, especially in our culture of, I got to do it myself or I've got to give back. But just to purely be in the receptive mode is a very generous act. I want to go back to what you said a moment ago when you were talking about. And bring two pieces together, and that is the breath and also the experience of touching another body and feeling the heat and the texture underneath your hands and allowing yourself to be impacted by that. Right. Allowing yourself to feel the exquisiteness of that living body underneath you is just such a profound experience.

Deborah [00:14:39]:

And I think I wanted to also mention. Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, but just this idea of bringing your energy in. I know a lot of times we have this idea of what sex is supposed to look like. Right. And oftentimes we have the model of two bodies coming together and being very connected. And for some of us, yes, we're with our partners, but yes, we're with our bodies and our own sensation. And so being able to have that experience where it's like we have all of our attention, whether it's in a genitalia erotic zone or the back of the neck or the hair, and really just allowing ourselves that full exploration of what is possible in these amazing bodies.

Joseph [00:15:39]:

And a lot of us, we need to feel safe doing that. We need to trust somebody who's with us. Some people go to a massage parlor. Not a massage parlor, but to a spa or somewhere and get a massage. But it's even more wonderful if it's somebody who you know and love, but they're not intruding. They're giving you a massage and you're receiving. Yes. And what I think is most important is that the relationship switches.

Joseph [00:16:12]:

Oh, and then tomorrow I will give you a massage that there's this back and forth, and I think so many people, young people who fall in love, they have a wonderful sexual encounter, and they go, oh, I want to have even more sex with this person. And I think that should be broadened. To say there's sensuous, there's touch is really important. So how can you pleasure this person in other ways? As you said, neck and shoulders or belly or foot massage? Because when we bond with somebody and we're really close, it's really wonderful to, how can I pleasure. How can I pleasure you? And then how can you pleasure me? And then it allows me just to feel my foot while you're massaging it, for example. Whoa. I think when people are getting married, for example, instead of giving them a microwave, you should consider giving them a massage table.

Deborah [00:17:29]:

I love that. And one of the pieces that you really brought into my life through fire on the mountain is that. Yes. So it starts with ritual. It starts with creating a container. And that was the first time I'd ever considered that. And how to make this a special experience. And for those of you who are listening, what I'm talking about is in the beginning of the video, there is two beautiful men coming together, basically sharing their desires and their fears and their boundaries.

Deborah [00:18:13]:

And this is something that we often do in Tantra, but that was the first time I had seen it and it really made an impression on me in that oftentimes we are not this explicit about what we want and what we're afraid of. And when we share these things, we expand the vulnerability of what's possible between two people. And this idea of, I think I'm going to leave it there. Do you have anything you want to add to that?

Joseph [00:18:50]:

Well, I think when people have sex and they have good sex, it often goes into some habits come in because our greatest hits, we go back to how we do it. But if one person is just receiving and it's their time just to receive, and then later, one person is just giving, which happens in massage or erotic massage. It allows for, I guess it could be habits, but I find it's a little different. It just allows me to go into myself. So I think anybody really involved in wonderful sexual relationship, and many people who are involved in wonderful sexual relationships, also involved in touch relationships because you're pleasuring that person's body. And one of my teachers, my main mentor was a man, was a therapist in San Francisco by the name of Jack Morin. You wrote the erotic mind. And he said, there's hot sex and there's warm sex.

Joseph [00:20:01]:

That was his term. And warm sex he meant was sensuous. And he said he studied long term lovers, people who've been 30 years together, and he found people who had long relationships were really into warm sex. They had hot sex every once in a while. But you have warm sex, which he meant intimacy, sensuousness. And I like that. I didn't think massage was second rate. And then there's intercourse.

Joseph [00:20:36]:

I found all of it important. But what I learned is something else. As a sex educator, I learned that a lot of things in the area of sex are about sexual arousal, and you have to be aroused to learn them. So to read something on Google, online, or in a book, or to hear somebody say something, it's not really learning. You learn by doing something. When you're aroused, you learn arousal skills, like being creative or playful. To be playful, you have to be aroused to learn to be playful. When you're aroused, you don't go, yes.

Joseph [00:21:23]:

And so what I found is erotic massage is a place where someone is massaging you and you're relaxed. And they're keeping you aroused. So now you can try out different skills and play. I found erotic massage was a good place to learn things and also masturbation. So you're aroused. Now is the time to really learn, oh, I'm aroused. I want to now try this out or that out. Especially getting out of habits.

Joseph [00:21:59]:

I think habits are deadly for relationships, especially some sexual habits. People get into habits and we're getting off. We're doing it, but it's kind of the same every time. No, let's be more playful. And I think that's. And creative, and I think that means. So erotic massage. Giving someone erotic massage is a time for them to try out things.

Joseph [00:22:32]:

For example, I have a thing I call erotic massage, dancing. And what I say is, during erotic massage, this isn't a time like massage just to be quiet and receive, but to respond. So I'm getting aroused. I'm going to move my body, not move my body into having sex with my partner. I'm moving my body to feel what that feels like, to move the sex around, to move the feelings around, or I'll breathe in different ways, or I'll thrust my hips or shake or vibrate or moan. I have people moan a lot louder because when they hear themselves moaning, there's this feedback. So erotic massage dancing is while you're aroused to dance the arousal, because then when you have sex directly with your partner, you've already wakened up new areas for the dance, the sexual dance.

Deborah [00:23:35]:

I'm absolutely shaking my head this whole time here because it's just so right on. And I want to just point a couple of things out here, if I may. So in this erotic massage dance, is this both the giver and the receiver.

Joseph [00:23:54]:

So the way I usually recommend it, the giver has to be in rhythm, of course, and breathing with. But they're not engaging the dance, so it doesn't become sex. It's not interactive there. As a sex educator, this is a time for them. I guess you could do both, but really they're there to. Yes, it's to explore things, really, within your body. This is a time because when you're with a partner, part of your intention is attention.

Deborah [00:24:30]:

Part of your intention is, how does my ass look?

Joseph [00:24:37]:

And is he or she or they having fun? And what should I do now? And all this, this is just, wow. I can just be and move and play and breathe and scream and laugh and be creative. One person I know told me, a woman told me that I love having sex with my boyfriend after he does erotic massage, dancing. When he does all that, he wakes up then, okay, now we're done. We finished that. He's gotten his experience. Now let's have sex. Because she said he's totally awake, and I understand that.

Joseph [00:25:23]:

And then the important thing about massage is that's reverse. You're not always the receiver. I think there's something wrong. Not wrong, but unbalanced in a relationship where one person is the real receiver and one's the giver. No. If you're not a very good giver, maybe you should start learning some giving skills. If you're not a very good receiver, as you said right at the beginning, you should learn some receiving skills so you can learn. You can learn things like this.

Deborah [00:25:57]:

Speaking of education, I would love you to talk a little bit about the creation and of sexological body work where it is now.

Joseph [00:26:13]:

So when I was doing all this erotic massage teaching and I was going to different cities, and I became. Every week, there's all these stories about traveling salvation shows, where the preacher would set up a tent and do this thing and then move on to the next city and set up a tent. I felt like it was a traveling salvation show because I would be in Philadelphia and there's 30 men. When I first started, it was men. I was identifying as a gay man in the. But I had a lover, Annie, and we did erotic massage also. So then I did erotic massage with women, with men, and we taught erotic massage together. But it was mainly at the beginning, erotic massage with men.

Joseph [00:27:09]:

And what I got surprised. What surprised me is some of the things that happened, because in this massage, because it wasn't, people had extraordinary experiences during the massage. And I found the power of. I call it nonromantic massage, where it's not about connecting with a partner. It's this erotic massage dancing, kind of where you're just having this session, and it awakens the inside of your body. It can connect the heart with the genitals. People had visions. This is the era where lots of people were dying also.

Joseph [00:27:58]:

And the breathing, also rebirthing breathing can cause big experiences. And at the end of the massage, I had people do what I called the big draw. I started this thing called the big draw, and it moved into tantra. And everywhere, everybody's doing the big draw, but it was where you. Instead of ejaculating, these were men instead of ejaculating. And the reason I didn't have ejaculation is semen could have HIV in it. So I go, I don't want to have a room where people are ejaculating. So I wasn't like a Taoist in the old days, but we're going to do an alternate.

Joseph [00:28:43]:

So at the end of the massage, as the experience built up and the breathing built up and the arousal built up, I had men take a deep breath and hold it and clench the muscles of their body in tightly and then relax and then just feel. And that experience of relaxing and feeling people had extraordinary experiences. Yes, you've had that experience. Have you had that experience?

Deborah [00:29:09]:

I've worked with clients, and that's something that I teach and it's something that I have modified for when you're by yourself and when you're with a partner. Because as you said, it is an extraordinary experience, especially for men who've been really, this idea of what sexuality is for men is often about ejaculation and it's often about pushing out. And so there's something really for my clients, the experience has been like pulling in and having that inner experience. Because for many men, it was the beginning of learning how to have a full body experience, a full body orgasm. And when I work with couples, it's been very exciting for women to actually get to watch their partners have pleasure. Because so often when we're in especially heterosexual style, missionary sex or doggy style, where you're not facing each other, we've got our eyes closed, or maybe we don't, but like to actually witness your partner in pleasure. First of all, it's super hot and it's such a beautiful experience. And generally speaking, both parties then get to float through the rest of their day.

Deborah [00:30:54]:

And as we cultivate this energy, this sexual energy, there's so much that's possible in that place, right? Not just in connection to each other, but when we're in this place of pleasure, it's a lot harder to be mean to other people. If you go to the store after an orgasm, everybody in the store is going to be looking good. And it's where you may have been a little frustrated because things take a little longer. You get to stand there and actually admire the colors and just being with people. And so I really believe, again, I personally believe that more pleasure is a better world. So cultivating this is so important. So as you were talking about, you know, teaching people and bringing it into the educational world, what makes sexological body work different and extraordinary?

Joseph [00:31:59]:

Well, first of all, I was teaching this erotic massage, and I found it a wonderful place as a sex educator. So I was using this as sex education. But as you said, people were having extraordinary experiences in a variety of ways. And I educated a lot of people who were doing this, but they felt an awkwardness because it was illegal to offer them, especially professionally. I mean, not just to a lover, but I was running a massage school, so prefer professionals. But some people wanted to do this professionally. So I thought, how can this be legal? Well, so I decided, can't be in the United States. I went to Germany.

Joseph [00:32:52]:

I went to Berlin, and I didn't know german, and I went to german school. This is in the mid 90s, because I was going to open a school there. Well, what I didn't realize is people in Germany speak English better than we speak german. And I didn't need to do that. I couldn't learn german. I wasn't very good. But I did start teaching in I. So I came back and with Annie and I, we went to sex school.

Joseph [00:33:24]:

We got a PhD in human sexuality in San Francisco. And the school we went to was approved, they call it, by the state of California, to train different professionals. So it was a sex school, but they had sex educators. And I don't know, there was a whole list of different professions that they taught, but nothing like what I was doing doing erotic massage, because that's illegal. So I went and asked the principal, I asked the president, I said, what if the state of California offers a profession where people do erotic body work? And he said, they won't do that. And I said, well, what if I write it up and you submit it to them? Because if they said yes, and I worked with a professional writer, and we wrote this up. We spent three weeks, and we didn't write it, to be honest with you, for the world. We wrote it for people in an office in Sacramento, that they would be impressed and somehow say yes.

Joseph [00:34:36]:

But I remember the one thing I wrote, and I said right now, the World Health Organization said, there are 20 million people have AIDS right now, or, wait, have died of AIDS or have AIDS, and 30 million more people in Africa and around the world are going to get AIDS. This is in 2003. So this is way after the beginning. And I said, we need to try everything possible in sex education to go beyond this. We need people to wake up in a different way. We need to stop this. And that's what this profession, sexological body work, is that I put out. And they said yes.

Joseph [00:35:20]:

They gave the permission for this new profession just in California by people who went to the school, and that meant they didn't change the laws. They just said, people who give erotic massage as an educational modality that this would be legal in California, and it still is. That is the case for people who are educated at that school. What I was really doing is I learned something when I was doing all this, and that is that all the sex education, a lot of sex education that I was involved with wasn't speaking to some real problems. I felt. I found there's things that I call sexual arousal habits, and it's habits people go into when they're aroused. And it's like holding their breath to get higher. Well, if you're playing with somebody, you can't hold your breath for an hour or two.

Joseph [00:36:30]:

You want to be in a higher rotic state or clenching your thighs and squeezing the. The sexual pleasure out. So there's a lot of tension in the body or a lot of people weren't making sounds because when we're aroused as kids in puberty, we didn't scream out and our families or our parents would hear it. So there's a lot of habit type stuff that I recognize people were doing that they needed to be in an aroused place, like erotic massage, to learn ways of being liberated so they could then have better sex. So erotic massage was one of the places while you're aroused. Let's now learn. And the sex logical body worker is a coach and watches and gives you some suggestions or gives you homework assignments for you to do so that you can learn this. And we're in this amazing time.

Joseph [00:37:47]:

I know a lot of people don't recognize this, but when we practice something, we can learn it. We can learn something. We can learn almost anything. And it might take 20 hours of practice. And a lot of people don't want to take 20 hours. They want to do it in 20 minutes or 100 hours. But I started helping. It's practice.

Joseph [00:38:13]:

You can practice and learn things. And so sexological body workers is a practice based profession, teaching people, what do you want to learn? For example, one of the things that I think is important is what I call sustained sexual arousal, where you're in an aroused state and you're going to be at maybe a high aroused state or a moderate aroused state, but you know how to keep yourself in that state or with a partner for a long period so you can play for a long time in an aroused state. Because so much sex, it's like build up higher, higher. Orgasm, orgasm, orgasm or release. And then you come down. No, well, there's other ways to play. And that was one of the things that I was really big on.

Deborah [00:39:04]:

Yeah, when you're talking about aroused state. I just want to be really clear because I know one of the things, I work with a lot of men who have concerns because they're not always hard, in my view. In my experience, that's only part of the arousal arc or cycle. And I just want to be clear. Like, when you talk about being in this aroused state, are you specifically talking about penises or genitalia or is there more to it?

Joseph [00:39:45]:

So you're right. There's a spectrum. I was right then. I think it's a skill to be learned, to be learned to be in an aroused state for a period. And you learn that how to do this because there's a certain wisdom of your body that gets activated at different states. So we're just talking about playing in different states. But what you're pointing out is, especially in play with a partner, in love making, there's different levels of arousal, and there's different for men. The penis can be soft, but the body's turned on and aroused.

Joseph [00:40:25]:

Yes, of course. But I think these are things that can be learned. And do you have the ability to be in an aroused. I think there's wisdom that gets activated when you're very aroused, when you're in a high place. I made one video once. I made a lot of videos, but one of them was called, when I'm hard, I'm smarter. And I did that because a lot of people say when men are hard, they're dumber because they're making decisions based on their arousal. But no, I think, and I'm 76 years old, so I'm very aware of soft cock.

Joseph [00:41:11]:

And one of my favorite videos that I've made is called soft cock erotic massage, because massaging the nerve endings on the penis can be amazing. And you can even have almost orgasmic feelings without arousal, without being hard. That's on eroticmassage.com. You can go and watch that video. It's a wonderful. And there's a whole class and education around that.

Deborah [00:41:42]:

Well, I want to talk just a moment about. So one of the things that you're doing differently, which I absolutely love, is a lot of people are, like, shaming around porn. And your view, as I understand it, is that if we can be embodied, if we choose to actually play with what we're watching and use that arousal state as an exploration, it absolutely changes things. Right. And so what I'm really seeing there is, it goes from just a viewer experience to a more embodied experience. And I've been thinking since we started the conversation about the different types of things that we can watch the different types of porn that's available to us. Everything from the standard Hollywood, everything's shaved, everything is, there's a team of 20 making sure that there's no dip in the cock. There's that.

Deborah [00:42:55]:

But then there's also everything in between. And what I really appreciate about I spent some time watching some of the videos is it's like the encouragement to self expression. The encouragement to self relationship was what I walked away with, going like, oh, wow. Because it was interesting to actually get to watch. I don't exactly know what the words for it was, but I didn't feel like a voyeur. I didn't feel like I was separate from. I felt like there was almost a conversation happening. And I just found that to be really refreshing.

Deborah [00:43:45]:

And so I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit about that. What you're doing with embodied porn. Watching.

Joseph [00:43:56]:

Just how I got into this is when I was younger and starting body electric and all this. In my early days of erotic exploration, I was not very big on fantasy. I didn't fantasize very much at all. And in the old days, I'm talking even before video, there was magazines and stuff, but I just never got. That was not part of me. I was really into feeling things and very sensate. But when I reached my 50s, so maybe 20 years ago, when I was in my 50s, long time ago, I started watching some porn and porn became available. At that time, there was all kinds of free porn on the Internet.

Joseph [00:44:45]:

That became the beginning of this century. And I go, and I'm watching this. And this helped my arousal. I go, oh, I can find something that I really like. Oh, this arouses me, and I'm into it. And so I started doing this, not a lot, but I started doing this. And I felt the cultural stuff. It was still negative about it, about porn.

Joseph [00:45:17]:

But then it hit me. What I really didn't like about porn and what I didn't like about porn is the goal of porn is to grab your attention and arouse you. That's the goal of, well, I'm fine with the arousal part, but the grab your attention. And so my attention was in the porn, and here I am masturbating and I'm not paying attention to the arousal in my body. I'm forgetting my body, in fact. And this is what body electric and all this, I wasn't paying attention to that. And I got embarrassed. Not that I was watching porn, that I was forgetting my body.

Joseph [00:46:01]:

And I started talking people and friends, and they go, oh, well, that's what porn is. They grabs you and pulls you into the porn and your attention is there. And I thought, but at the same time, I was doing this erotic massage work and knowing that when you're aroused is a place to learn. And I thought, here's porn supplies arousal. Is there some learning that can take place here? And so I figured out some things. For me, the first thing is don't watch porn lying down or sitting down. I watched porn standing up. I stood up and I found when I was masturbating, watching porn, I naturally moved.

Joseph [00:46:49]:

And it started moving, and it was like erotic massage dancing. It was like what was going on in the massages on the table. And it really felt good to move. So I was aware of my body somewhat, but I was still in the porn, but I would come back to my body. So then I decided I needed to pay attention to my body more. This is just me first. Then I started teaching this to other people. But the second thing I said, okay, I'm going to, every once in a while, every two minutes or something, I'm going to do five breaths where I stop watching the porn and just pay attention to my body and notice.

Joseph [00:47:31]:

So I'd just stop. I'd look away. I'd stop the porn. When I was working with other men about this, they go, but something might happen during those five breaths. I go, that's why you have this face button. You can stop the porn, you're not going to miss anything. And you do the breaths, and it's kind of like a mini, what we call body scan, but you're noticing. And people started having this.

Joseph [00:47:57]:

Men, by the way, men at first were doing this, and then men and women again for both, but started recognizing, wow, I've been masturbating for a while. And that masturbation has a feeling that I wasn't noticing. This feels pretty good. People were like, so that five breaths where they were bringing their attention to their body, I called it a pendulum, where you're swinging from the porn to your body and you just notice your body. Then I said, after five breaths, just go back to the porn and watch some more. So I was not suggesting that anybody has to just give up porn, but every once in a while, notice their body. Well, here's what happens. After a while, if people are really good, they're charging up their body with arousal and moving and standing, but they're watching the porn.

Joseph [00:48:54]:

Eventually, a lot of people, their body's more interesting than the porn in other words, they're looking at somebody fucking or doing whatever they think is exciting, but when they come back to their body, oh, my God, this is really. I was listening to a song by John Mayer. Your body is a wonderland. Beautiful title. I love your body. So I think a lot of them come back, oh, my God, my body's a wonderland. And there's this. Paying attention to their own body for a while and then go back to the porn for a little more arousal and come back.

Joseph [00:49:35]:

So a lot of people didn't do five breaths, but did a lot more of just enjoying their own body and noticing what's going on and dancing it and moving because they're standing. Then I decided I did more things. I'm a masseur. I want to massage my belly, and I'm going to massage with one hand, I'm masturbating with the other. And so I recommended different things, like shaking every once in a while. Shake out. When you shake, it moves everything around. When men orgasmed, I had what I called let it fly orgasm.

Joseph [00:50:21]:

I said, half of men are grabbing a tissue or a towel during when they're masturbating to catch the semen. No, just let it fly. Have this wild orgasm and then go, oh, my God, it's so much different. I said, yeah, you were cleaning up during the orgasm. I developed about 30 different things that people could do during orgasm. I want to tell you the best one.

Deborah [00:50:54]:

I'm pretty excited. I have to say, I'm pretty excited about the wild orgasm. I can just imagine the freedom that that gives somebody. And it's so funny. We really haven't hit much on this, and I don't want to go back there. But just what I'm realizing in this conversation is there's so many subtle places that we shame male sexuality. Right? And it just doesn't serve us. It doesn't serve anybody to shame sexuality.

Deborah [00:51:33]:

But when you were talking about this idea that an aroused man was dumb because he didn't have enough blood for both heads, how many of these very subtle things do we say about men's sexuality? And I'm just really, thank you so much for lighting that up for me.

Joseph [00:51:54]:

I think it's not only what's said, but what I was feeling when I was doing this and when I first started doing this is I would be masturbating to porn. And I felt this was kind of paltry. I was here, I did this, and I came, but I wasn't paying attention to my body. I thought, I'm having paltry sex. You know what I mean? Sex is a better thing than this. And so when I was moving and dancing and playing and watching porn, but then coming away and letting your orgasm fly and massaging yourself, I was engaged. And so I got to define my sexual experience rather than sitting or lying down. And when one watches porn and has sex over and over, you're in this high state, but you're barely moving.

Joseph [00:52:56]:

Usually when you're sitting or lying down, well, I think that carries over when you're with somebody else, you're aroused, but you're used to being still. And the same with a woman with a vibrator on the clit or something. There's not a lot of movement here. So I go, we need something more. So people are standing. What I started recommending is hands free arousal. What I mean by that is while you're standing, for men to anchor a fleshlight that you can penetrate at penis level, and for people with vulvas to have a vibrator anchored that they can push into and pleasure themselves without their hands, and so then their hands are free. What I found out is that when we're doing stuff with our hands, like holding a vibrator, this tightens the whole shoulder and the whole chest, especially as you get more intense and it goes on and you're holding it tight, this is tightening the upper chest.

Joseph [00:54:08]:

If you're doing the same thing by pushing into it, and this is all liberated, it really feels different. It's wonderful. I call it hands free.

Deborah [00:54:17]:

And I imagine running my hands through my hair. Yes. My face and playing with my nipples. Oh, my God.

Joseph [00:54:29]:

So I want to say on embodiedpornwatching.com is a free website. I have embodied porn watching. And if you go to the page of doing the pendulum, there's a video of a woman I coached. No, she was non binary. They were non binary. Person that I coached was the first time they were doing this, pushing in with a vibrator, and they start laughing and they start having fun, and they're playing with their breasts, and they're pushing into. They're standing and dancing and pushing in. So it's a free video@embodiedpornwatching.com.

Joseph [00:55:17]:

It's a wonderful example of. And it's the first time they did this, it was like, oh, I thought, yes, well, here's the important thing for people identified as men, and that is this gives you a chance. When you're thrusting and you're hands free and you're watching porn, you're thrusting, you get to practice moving and thrusting. And you said earlier in the beginning that you learned so much about penises from my videos or from me. What I've learned as I went on is how many men aren't very good at thrusting. They might be able to a little bit, but thrust this dance. And so here is a way that somebody watching pouring can practice thrusting and still massage themselves and shake out, but they're thrusting. And when you're moving, you're actually playing with your arousal level because you don't want to go too high.

Joseph [00:56:23]:

You want control. In many, that's the biggest thing for men, is they lose control and ejaculate quickly. I think also this standing and moving and thrusting hands free is a place to learn thrusting with a partner.

Deborah [00:56:44]:

Yeah, it sounds like part of what you're talking about is using this as kind of a training for partnered sex, that not only is it a training for playing with your own arousal, but it's also a training for being with your partner.

Joseph [00:57:06]:

In fact, I know some married women don't like their husbands watching porn, but I have a variety of ways of engaging women, I have to say. But one woman told me, I'm fine with my husband watching porn if he stands up and does the things you say, because that carries over to sex with me. He used to not be very mobile, and now he moves around and all this, and we have sex and I go, good. So I think men naturally aren't fluid. We're tight. And all this part of it's holding.

Deborah [00:57:52]:

Right again, like so many things in our culture, when you see a man on the dance floor allowing himself to be in his body, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. So I feel like we have so much more to cover, and I just really want to pause us here. In a moment. I'm going to ask you, where do people find you? What are you passionate about in this moment? But first, I want to just give people a way to support the better sex podcast. Because as great as a podcast is, and as amazing as these conversations are, sometimes we need a little bit of accountability, and sometimes we need some support to put things into action. And so if you could use some help, some support, please check out the links below. In the show notes, I have an offering for those listeners of the better sex podcast, some very reasonable coaching sessions. So please check it out.

Deborah [00:59:01]:

And I would love to support you in having better sex. And on that note, I'm just going to come back to Joseph. And so what is it that you are? I mean, I'm imagining that it's this embodied horn work that's got you passionate. But I'm curious, where is your passion level these days, and where is it focused?

Joseph [00:59:27]:

I think right now, it's encouraging people as much as possible to touch each other. And, um, what I've. I'll tell you where I'm working is. Is, well, you're a coach, and if somebody wants to learn something sexual, they need. They need to practice. And so I've been studying a type of practice called deliberate practice. You might be familiar, and it's a really powerful way to learn. You move outside your comfort level, you practice something.

Joseph [01:00:02]:

And there's one man I like to follow on medium, but he does 100 hours of something. He says, I'm going to practice chess, or I'm going to practice Thai massage for 100 hours, or I'm going to. After 100 hours, he says, what did I learn? And I don't think we have to do 100 hours. But, for example, a man who wants to learn thrusting, you can say, I'm going to do 20 hours of practice, and after 20 hours, you might go, oh, I now know I need a little more, but I've learned a lot, so our brains change, and I'm really excited about practice. And so here's my suggestion for people who are learning. Just touch. And that is, I think, to have somebody to touch, somebody with the same stroke ten times in a row. Exactly.

Joseph [01:01:06]:

Exact pressure, everything. Ten times. The reason I say that, or could be for five minutes, and it could be genitally, or it could be just on the belly or the arms, but you're doing the same stroke, and maybe with breath. And one of the things people have problems with is maintaining attention during sex. This is education and paying attention to touch. And I think that's what we don't realize in giving massage, we have to learn, and in making love, we have to pay attention to this other person's interactions. And this is the era of not paying attention. We're disembodied, and we're out in the virtual world.

Joseph [01:01:51]:

So I'm really working these days. I think savoring is the overall name that I'm doing of it. Savoring touch. So I'm going to touch you ten times, but keep your attention there. And if you get distracted, it's like meditation. Bring it back. And then after I'm done with those ten times, what are you feeling now? Not what did you feel during the ten times, but what are you feeling? What are you noticing? Okay, let's do ten strokes on the penis. So let's do one taste.

Joseph [01:02:29]:

Had this thing called oming. I don't know if you know oming.

Deborah [01:02:33]:

Oh, yeah.

Joseph [01:02:34]:

There's 15 minutes of one stroke on the clitoris. But I think this is important right now. This is what I'm really interested in, is learning to savor touch. Erotic touch. And it could be done. People watching pouring can do their version of it, but it can be done with a partner or with yourself or with massage without. And I think a lot of people grew up and they grew up in families or in environments where touch wasn't important. We need to learn touch.

Joseph [01:03:18]:

And you describe going to the grocery store and having your heart open after a erotic experience. I think we need to learn to touch our friends too. And parents need to touch their kids. I know there's baby massage, but even the three year olds and the six year olds and all this. And there needs to be appropriate, of course, touch. And there's ways to learn this. You want to know how to do a back massage or a foot massage? There are 50 videos on YouTube teaching. Go and look and try one and try the next one and ask your partner, how is this like this? And I think this is.

Joseph [01:04:15]:

You don't have to have a partner that lives in your house. You can have a massage partner, somebody who you do massage on, or they do massage on you, or friends with benefits. Here's friends with erotic massage benefits. They do some erotic massage on you and you on them. But I just think we can learn to be human. What I see us is more and more becoming disembodied. Our attention is pulled into 1000 different things we could see on television or in the Internet. We're on our phones in different ways and subtly.

Joseph [01:04:53]:

We're doing what I said happened with porn. We're forgetting our bodies and there's not enough value placed on that. People don't even feel this value in their own body because there's so much magnificence out there. I was watching Game of Thrones with my sister this last week and I go, oh, my God, this is amazing. I've seen it before. There's so much out there. But while I'm watching Game of Thrones, my body didn't exist. I was watching that.

Joseph [01:05:27]:

It's important to come back and touch is one way. This is human way. This is kindness. Touch is a way of being kind to each other, with each other and all the stuff that's going on politically and all this. I think we need to feel safe and kind, especially kids. Do I feel kids are more alienated. I feel I had more when I was in high school and all of that than kids today. I think there's even less touch going on.

Deborah [01:06:04]:

So what I'm really hearing is bringing things back to the body, bringing things back to touch, learning how to be appropriate with our touch, learning how to, I'm loving the word savor. Just feels so good when you say it. Not just our lovers, but to savor ourselves. And lastly, I just want to underline practice because as you said, whether it's five breaths, five strokes, five minutes, the more that we actually practice, the more that we have access to that when we're in the moment when we might need it. So again, I almost hate to cut this conversation short, but my guest, Joseph Kramer. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Deborah [01:07:04]:

You can find him and his work is@eroticmassage.com orgasmicyoga.com. And you're on Facebook and Instagram.

Joseph [01:07:19]:

Yes, but I think it would be the free site. The other site is embodiedpornwatching.com. Also, it's another one, embodied porn watching has videos and all, some of what we talked about.

Deborah [01:07:36]:

Beautiful. So again, if you know somebody, and I'm imagining that each and every one of us knows somebody that could use this conversation, please share it. Share it widely and unabashedly. And also to help get the word out about embodied porn, about touch, about savoring, please follow us on social media and go ahead and, like, subscribe, leave a comment, and most of all, practice. Savor and enjoy. Thank you so much, Joseph, I'm so thrilled to have you.

Joseph [01:08:21]:

Thank you. Thank you very much.